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JJMCKAY
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![[*]](./images/iconic/default_icon.gif) posted on 2-5-2010 at 10:01 AM |
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Duder said....
Boon you are way off base, You completely ignore 90% of my posts and just pick the bits that make you feel better. First unlike diaries, PPM's do give
the listeners a voice. Their actual listening habits are being recorded. Unlike diaries were a few dishonest individuals propped up their favorite
station. The fact that listners are not required to do anything but wear the PPM and plug it in at night is a much better system. Just because you
like to lie and give undeserving stations ratings, does not mean everyone else feels that way. You are not the majority....deal with it. The results
actually benefit the stations people really listen to.....to me that is honesty, not your viewpoint which is based off of lies and out of date
technology.
OK, so u have ur favorite morning show.....so u always get up and listen to your favorite morning show in the bedroom, take a shower, get dressed in
bedroom, all while listening in the bedroom to your favorite morning show, which u wrote in ur diary before. NOW, the PPM is in the kitchen charging.
You grab it, turn it on and head to work. So, the amount of time u listened to your favorite morning show does NOT get registered and the ratings
suffer then the show gets fired, right? Think about it duder
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Bruce the Fierce
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| posted on 2-5-2010 at 11:37 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JJMCKAY
OK, so u have ur favorite morning show.....so u always get up and listen to your favorite morning show in the bedroom, take a shower, get dressed in
bedroom, all while listening in the bedroom to your favorite morning show, which u wrote in ur diary before. NOW, the PPM is in the kitchen charging.
You grab it, turn it on and head to work. So, the amount of time u listened to your favorite morning show does NOT get registered and the ratings
suffer then the show gets fired, right? Think about it duder |
... or you forget it completely and go to work with it still on the kitchen charger, where it can't pick up anything you listened to on your AM or PM
commutes, or at work. You'd remember to put it in your diary, but your PPM won't record it. Excellent observation, Mr. McKay, and hello again! Glad to
read that you're back on the air in Denver and doing well.
Your point nicely illustrates one of the big reasons Nielsen got back in the radio game and feels diaries are more reflective of listener habits. And
I do say "habits" and not sounds you hear in passing or sounds you're trying to block out.
But Duder's right too, and I think you've reasoned it out, BD. If you can separate out those active listeners, the PPM does give lots of cogent and
much more immediate and specific data. A jock or talker wouldn't be too overwhelmed with information if he simply looked at his own data and then went
back over his podcasts. Maybe, BD, it would even help Peter Boyles and KO realize that Birther-speak is deadly radio because every time he brings on
Orlie Taitz his numbers tank! hehehe!!!
(Hey, BD, that brings up a question for you. You all got me into a missing-Denver mode, so I was listening to KHOW's stream this morning when Boyles
got into the Birther crap, and he brought on Bob Unruh. Is that the same Bob Unruh who used to be at the Denver AP bureau on Wazee in the Eighties?
You worked closely with them, didn't you? Weren't you on their Wire Editors committee? Unruh was normal back then, wasn't he? But now he works for
WND??? What happened to him? Did he get a lobotomy or what?)
BD, glad to hear your business is still good. Enjoyed breakfast with you at Lou Mitchell's last October. Are you and Calista still dreaming of WBBM
West? Hope so, cuz ANR is Revenue Valhalla!
OK, so much for Old Home Week. Back to the topic before you and Glad-He-Ate-Her ban me.
Here, BD, is the Nielsen page on radio ratings:
http://en-us.nielsen.com/main/measurement/radio
Radio
Advancing radio measurement
For more than 60 years, Nielsen has been measuring radio audiences around the world, using gold-standard diary measurement in 11 world markets that
include China, Australia, Singapore, India and South Africa. Now, Nielsen is leveraging this experience to advance the way U.S. radio audiences are
measured.
In order to deliver the most accurate and reliable ratings estimate, Nielsen surveys a robust sample of the population in each of 51 Nielsen Radio
Metro Markets, tracking their radio listening, while using many best practice solutions that improve the way radio is being measured, including a
proven and easy-to-use sticker diary that is currently being used in many countries around the world to improve the quality of radio measurement.
Households are recruited using Nielsen pioneering address-based sampling methodology, which reaches 98% of the total US. This includes the significant
percentage not currently reached by standard telephone samples as well as members of the more than 20 million households (approximately 18 percent)
that rely solely on a mobile phone for their home telecommunications. This approach offers broadest coverage of radio listeners in the industry. In
many of the markets, the sample size is more than double compared to what has traditionally been available, thereby reducing relative error and
book-to-book bounce.
Nielsen is making a significant investment in over sampling and differentiated incentives to ensure proper representation of hard-to-reach demographic
sets such as 18-34 year-olds and minorities. Our data is enhanced with top-line, single-source qualitative measurement of lifestyle, consumer behavior
and purchase intent.
Data is delivered to clients via the Nielsen web-based Radio Advisor software platform, which includes responsible limits on the granularity of
analysis dependent on a minimum representative sample size.
BD, you're right about one reason we think the PPM numbers would be inflated. One other thing that got talked about a lot at JWT, Duder, was the
exponentially increased possibility of fraud and manipulation, not by the PPM wearers but by the stations. The thought was that the potential presence
of PPMs would tempt radio stations to spend some money to get concert and sports venues, grocery and other retail stores, other workplaces and even
public transit to pipe their signals onto the PA systems, and even out onto the sidewalks. People would be force-fed the signal whether they wanted to
be or not, but so would the PPMs in the crowd. Imagine 20,000 people at the Pepsi Center or 70,000 at Invesco listening (or not) to KBPI before the
event, or the tens of thousands of RTD commuters being exposed to KOA ... and the stations hoping that some PPMs in the crowd are picking up the
signal.
Our conversation took two sides. Some said, "Hey, that's good, it expands the reach of radio's brands as well as its advertisers, and it could create
listening habits." Others said the negatives would be too high, both for the stations and the venues, it would be seen by listeners as an intrusion
even more annoying and inversely-effective than Internet pop-up ads, and the numbers would again be artificially inflated. I fall into the latter
camp, and I think Nielsen does too.
But as I said before, if Arbitron can weed out those glitches and police it really well, the PPM data can indeed be helpful both economically and with
programming. So be patient, BD. And Duder, don't be in such lock-step allegiance to it yet. The problems you've dismissed here are really valid ones,
and they do have to be addressed. I am confident they will, though.
OK, back to Old Home Week again.
Hi, Calista! Actually, the old JWT office, which had been open since the 1890s, was about to close last spring. We lost some big accounts such as
Kraft and Miller, our staff was down to about four dozen, and the management at that time (Rosemarie Ryan et al) seemed willing to just let the ship
sink and let everything be done out of New York, including our last big accounts, Kimberly-Clark and Nestle. I was afraid they were going to either
buy me out or make me move to the Bad Apple, and I didn't want to. Carol and I love Chicago and didn't want to move any more. (Some old-timers on this
board will remember "Laura," the lady from Limon who transferred from Denver to Chicago because of her husband's health and then helped me get my foot
in the door here. The thought of New York petrified her so much that she just up and retired.) We all thought the end was near, but suddenly on its
white horse rode in the Illinois tourism board! We had an account with them that was under review, and realized that if we could get them to renew
that maybe we could stay open as a field office to service them, and maybe rebuild some business as well. And voila, the miracle happened! I printed
out this notice and framed it!
http://www.purchase.state.il.us/ipb/IllinoisBID.nsf/frmBidDocFrameset?ReadFor...
So, yeah, let's have lunch. When are you up here next, BD? Maybe you can come too.
Calista, you were talking about Ogilvy & Mather, right? Now there's a story!
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Boondocker
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| posted on 2-5-2010 at 04:32 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Bruce the Fierce
When are you up here next, BD? Maybe you can come too. |
From next Wednesday evening through Monday the 22nd. Two API seminars. Just e-mail me or give me a call.
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Calista
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| posted on 2-5-2010 at 05:35 PM |
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I know the O and M thing. Still, Burnett has always been SO much more fun, especially with that killer studio over at the Wacker Drive building.
Is Johnny Z still around JWT, Bruce?
Video killed the radio star...
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Calista
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| posted on 2-5-2010 at 05:39 PM |
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AND A MEMO TO ALL POTENTIAL INVESTORS READING THIS:
BD, glad to hear your business is still good. Enjoyed breakfast with you at Lou Mitchell's last October. Are you and Calista still dreaming of WBBM
West? Hope so, cuz ANR is Revenue Valhalla!
--Bruce said it. I DIDN'T. NOR DID BOON. You wimps need any more proof?
I will say it again: 25 mil will roll the thing for a year and maybe two -- station purchase included -- and that assumes NO SALES COMING IN.
Is ANR expensive? Big time. Does it make money? Bigger time.
Think of it this way: you could go to Tiffany or Jared's for your wife's tenth anniversary. Go to Jared's, she might give you a kiss. Go to Tiffany?
You WILL get laid.
Video killed the radio star...
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Bruce the Fierce
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| posted on 2-5-2010 at 05:44 PM |
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ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!! But which is better? ANR or getting laid? I'm pondering this.
No, Calista, last I heard, the great Johnny Zwierzko was at ARU, but also working for himself. He's a got a kick-a$$ website if you want to peek: http://www.johnnyzaudio.com/.
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Calista
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| posted on 2-5-2010 at 06:12 PM |
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Gasp -- Johnny Z goes to the WRIGLEY BUILDING???
Yeah, that's a good crew over there. I know a lot of 'em -- Don Arbuckle is about the best there is at audio. I did more freelance at CRC, but that
was just because of "whom I knew."
ANR versus getting laid? ANR lasts longer, but tends to repeat itself.
EDIT: Wait a minute, Bruce. John's got a link on his webpage that directs to CRC, not ARU, and YOU of all people would know -- they may be friends,
but those two firms mortally hate each other. Might Johnny Z be at CRC with Mindy Verson/David Kaplan/mebbe even Dave Leffel? "Politically," in the
Chicago agency sense of the word, it seems to make more sense for Johnny Z to be at CRC, and not ARU.
ANOTHER edit to add: once again, this board takes a huge turn toward Chicago. Welcome back, Bruce. Missed your common sense. Between you, me and Boon,
maybe we can fix radio in the "cowtown."
Video killed the radio star...
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Bruce the Fierce
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| posted on 2-5-2010 at 06:55 PM |
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As I said, I just heard Johnny was working with ARU, and now that I look at his LinkedIn page, it's there as well. Heck, he may be like most of us now
and doing a little contract work with everybody.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Calista
ANR versus getting laid? ANR lasts longer, but tends to repeat itself.
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You mean getting laid doesn't? Gee, I'm sorry? hehehe
Give her 22 minutes, she'll give you the world!
Speaking of that, and trying desperately to get this topic back on topic, ANR's an interesting animal in the PPMs. Lots of churn, lots of short
visits, but prosperity by pure volume.
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Calista
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| posted on 2-5-2010 at 07:05 PM |
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The TSL is screwed on ANR. Completely. But the "repeats" are enough to make it the biggest format in PPM -- far beyond CHR. FAR beyond CHR.
If PPM is a "cume" game, ANR is the only format that really ever won in PPM.
OK, Bruce, PURE trivia. Where did "you give us 22 minutes, we'll give you the world" come from? What station, and why?
As for me? "You give me 25 million, I'll make you 75 million in two years."
Video killed the radio star...
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Calista
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| posted on 2-5-2010 at 07:44 PM |
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| Quote: |
Boon you are way off base, You completely ignore 90% of my posts and just pick the bits that make you feel better. First unlike diaries, PPM's do give
the listeners a voice. Their actual listening habits are being recorded. Unlike diaries were a few dishonest individuals propped up their favorite
station. The fact that listners are not required to do anything but wear the PPM and plug it in at night is a much better system. Just because you
like to lie and give undeserving stations ratings, does not mean everyone else feels that way. You are not the majority....deal with it. The results
actually benefit the stations people really listen to.....to me that is honesty, not your viewpoint which is based off of lies and out of date
technology.
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I'm going to say this in this debate, to get the DEBATE ITSELF back on track.
Duder, whomever he is, is drinking the grape KoolAid. And probably hasn't worked in a market larger than, say, Colorado Springs.
Let's examine:
1) First, unlike diaries, PPM's do give the listeners a voice. (For the record, I corrected duder's abysmal grammar and added the comma. Heretofore, I
will let his butchery of the language speak for itself.)
--Umm, no, they don't. PPM's are passive devices that hear things. They are not interactive, save for the evening when they interact with Arbitron by
uploading data. "Giving listeners a voice?" Um, duder (or is that "stoned out of your mind"), have you read the objections to PPM from minority
broadcasters? It's the very LACK of voice the PPM gives listeners that is p*ssing many owners off!
2) Their actual listening habits are being recorded.
Again, no. The dog's listening habits might be being recorded. Or a teenager's. But even Chicago Congressman Luis Gutierrez, who was sent a PPM by
Arbitron, complained the device was intrusive and didn't function practically, nor did it pay enough that he would be interested in taking part.
Again, duder, shut your piehole and read the NEWS.
3) Unlike diaries were a few dishonest individuals propped up their favorite station.
Arbitron has already recalled several PPM markets due to skew. READ THE NEWS. There is ratings distortion with PPM, as there was with diary. It's not
mutually exclusive.
4) The fact that listners are not required to do anything but wear the PPM and plug it in at night is a much better system.
For one, the sentence is incorrect in structure, and I also note the misspelling of "listeners." I'm willing to bet duder didn't graduate from high
school; goodness knows as a college prof at Metro State (and I was until I resigned for a new job), I would have flunked him for writing that
gibberish in the first place.
And, by the way -- he's wrong.
People do forget to plug the PPM in at night, and Arbitron constantly forgets to check to see if the PPM is plugged in. Critics say the system is what
computer programmers would thus far call "vaporware" -- promised software that doesn't deliver.
Arbitron promised a lot to the "currency markets" that has yet to be delivered. And, for that, Arbitron probably should be quite publicly
b*tch-slapped by the FCC and Congress. But were they any worse than, say, Microsoft, vis a vis Windows Vista?
Probably not. Unfortunately, probably not.
5) Just because you like to lie and give undeserving stations ratings, does not mean everyone else feels that way.
And that, duder, is a comma splice in the sentence that renders your entire sentence illiterate -- if you ARE on the air in Denver, you had best hope
I am never your boss. Write a memo that way to me, and I will throw you through a window for butchering English. And you are going FACE FIRST.
And, again, you are wrong factually -- not just grammatically.
Arbitron itself has taken out ads admitting PPM needs help. Former CEO Michael Skarzynski recently resigned after misleading statements he made to a
key Congressional committee were uncovered (but duder doesn't read the news, so I can't expect him to KNOW anything). Hey, quick question duder, and
Google is not allowed. Who is the new CEO of Arbitron?
Yeah. I didn't think you knew.
6) You are not the majority....deal with it. The results actually benefit the stations people really listen to.....to me that is honesty, not your
viewpoint which is based off of lies and out of date technology.
Actually, Boon IS the majority, as only the minority carry PPM devices. And I had to read the second half of what you wrote to make sure I knew the
meaning, as English seems to be a second language for you. Not only did you end a "sentence" that you interrupted with an appositive in a preposition
-- you didn't hyphenate the three-word adjective at the end (and note, I hyphenated the two-word adjective.)
As I understand you -- and that's a matter of some debate, given the slipshod way in which you write -- you say Boon's viewpoint isn't valid, and ONLY
your viewpoint is valid.
I'm going to vote as follows: until duder can express thoughts in coherent, grammatically-correct English, why does it even matter if his facts are
right or wrong?
You can't spell? You can't write?
You should NEVER be allowed to argue.
Video killed the radio star...
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Bruce the Fierce
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| posted on 2-5-2010 at 08:44 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Calista
OK, Bruce, PURE trivia. Where did "you give us 22 minutes, we'll give you the world" come from? What station, and why? |
Oh, come on, give me an easy one. 1010 WINS in New York! They did three segments an hour, each one 20 minutes. And 22 minutes was judged to be the
average commute.
Call Duder on what he gets wrong but be nicer to him. If this site blasted everybody who didn't use proper grammar and spelling, BD might be happier
but there'd be only about five people debating. That's the result of texting. My wife claims I'm the only person in the world who types out complete,
properly spelled sentences on his cell phone instead of using abbreviations and shortening words to atrocities such as "ur" and "prolly." I've told
her, no, BD's probably another one, and now I'll bet I can add you!
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Adroit
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| posted on 2-5-2010 at 09:09 PM |
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CALISTA: PPM's are passive devices that hear things
ADROIT: You're not showing possession there so why the apostrophe?
CALISTA: vis a vis Windows Vista
ADROIT: vis-a-vis should be hyphenated according to Merriam.
CALISTA: grammatically-correct English
ADROIT: "Ly"-ending adverbs are not hyphenated.
You are a witch tonight. Sounds like you are drunk.
Turn the radio on.
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Calista
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| posted on 2-5-2010 at 09:30 PM |
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Adroit, I didn't show an apostrophe that doth possess. In other words, Adroit:
Is this a dagger which I see before me,
The handle toward my hand? Come, let me clutch thee;
I have thee not, and yet I see thee still.
Art thou not, fatal vision, sensible
To feeling as to sight? or art thou but
A dagger of the mind, a false creation,
Proceeding from the heat-oppressed brain?
I see thee yet, in form as palpable
As this which now I draw.
Video killed the radio star...
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Calista
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| posted on 2-5-2010 at 09:34 PM |
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ABSOLUTELY WRONG, BRUCE.
It was KFWB.
Video killed the radio star...
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Boondocker
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| posted on 2-6-2010 at 09:59 AM |
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OK, I'm having to prune this thread, something I hate to do.
PPM stands for Portable People Meter, not Personal Pounding and Mauling.
Let's talk radio -- after this public service announcement:
Calista, Adroit is correct. The apostrophe to which he was referring is the one you used in "PPM's" . It should just be a plural acronym, "PPMs." The
"ly" adverbs aren't followed by a hyphen; that's a commonly made error. "Vis-a-vis" does have hyphens. His source is Merriam-Webster. Mine's the AP
Stylebook.
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Bruce the Fierce
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| posted on 2-9-2010 at 10:58 AM |
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Even though I've stated that I believe Arbitron will work out the kinks in the PPM that included the ones we've documented here, plenty of doubts
about the wisdom of measuring ambient noise instead of actual listener choices continue in the broadcasating and advertising industries, and
entrepreneurs are seizing on those doubts. Besides Nielsen's re-entry into the ratings game with diaries, here's a press release that hawks yet
another survey option that finds its roots in doubt:
Tuesday, February 9, 2010
QUALITATIVE DATA PROVES: YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE #1 12+
Ad buyers love top stations. But AQH and cume are just part of the story. Qualitative data can make the difference in almost every buy. Your #10
station could be #1 — with the help of qualitative data.
The Media Audit provides the most comprehensive media audience measurement and consumer intelligence in today’s changing marketplace.
Pitching a new client and need a snapshot of the media or consumer landscape for your market? Just visit the newly launched website: http://www.themediaaudit.com. Clients and non-clients of The Media Audit now have the
opportunity to view a sampling of The Media Audit’s extensive database of media and consumer statistics for every market the company measures.
Visitors can get a snapshot of any local measured market that includes 18+ ratings for all local media, as well as a look at how consumers are
spending their leisure time, what they are buying, and where they shop.
Bob Jordan, President of International Demographics, explains, "The objective of the new website is to provide an effective merchandising tool for The
Media Audit while providing customers and prospects with data that can be useful to them in their business right away."
What Media Audit report is most valuable?
"That depends on what the client needs." Besides the rank report, a very useful report right now is the cross media platform analysis — which is
definitely growing in importance. Jordan points out, "Many radio stations want to use the data to convince a buyer of the increased audience they
offer with the addition of ads on the station website. We can produce that information in a duplicate reach report. We add radio and website ratings
to show the net unduplicated reach, with number of people and a rating, and percentage or market reached."
The two most common reports for conducting a prospecting analysis are the Market Index report and the Composition report. Depending on whether you are
a niche media or a mass media, your value proposition may include indices which suggest certain efficiencies, or ratings, which suggest reach.
Agencies like the Ad Campaign Planner.
Another product from The Media Audit is the Ad Campaign Planner, which allows a user to project the results of a media campaign across several forms
of media. Jordan explains, "With this program, you can add radio stations, local newspaper, TV programs and internet together. The resulting report
will give you a net total per media, with unduplicated reach for each. Then you can get the unduplicated reach for the total buy and see how each will
perform, then see how the total buy will perform. That’s a real resource for buyers."
"If you visit our new website, you’ll find several new sections that help meet the needs of individuals and companies who seek to maximize return on
investment with qualitative research tools. Additionally, the site showcases samples of its data demonstrating how media, agencies, and advertisers
can develop new business and better strategic planning when making advertising and marketing decisions."
The Media Audit was founded in 1971, and currently surveys 80+ markets. Whether you are looking to drive advertising revenue, or develop more
effective ad campaigns that deliver greater ROI, The Media Audit’s robust database of local media usage, consumer shopping and lifestyle information
offers the most current data in the industry.
Contact:
Bob Jordan, President
International Demographics, Inc.
rjordan@themediaaudit.com
http://www.themediaaudit.com
800-324-9921
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